cmpenney
(Chad Penney)
9/27/10 06:02 PM
Can you provide some more information on these. The link provided really doesn't even talk about breeding. Can you site any other information on breeding these?
rsman
(Richard Reynolds)
9/27/10 07:02 PM
I dont know anyone who ever bred them, there useless at selling they wholesale for way to low to make it worth it .... the only reason I did was for food for other things .....
rsman
(Richard Reynolds)
9/27/10 07:44 PM
I realize that everyone here, including myself, is a volunteer. I also realize that these points don't mean anything and I don't get a real prize, that is fine. Not everyone who has success(ie these starfish) or even strong attempts (ie my experience with lunare wrasses) will post information on MBI, or even anywhere in public, especially if they're doing this as a business and not as a hobby. For example, I have attempted over 60 species of marine ornamentals and have had success with over 40. I am choosing to volunteer my time and knowledge.
I am finding it quite frustrating that the majority of new species classification requests I've worked with and have assigned a grade to have been questioned and grades have been reassigned. I am volunteering my time and my knowledge...if I have additional breeding information handy, whether it's my own journals or another instance on a website, I will post it. If I do not provide additional links, it's also up to you, as a fellow volunteer on this website, to look for additional information on breeding the species I've listed, or take my postings at face value. The majority of species I've worked with don't have copious amounts of information regarding breeding and rearing online because a) not many people have tried/succeded with them, b) the people who have succeeded aren't sharing their information, or c) the information that I posted on RC 8 years ago is no longer available (as far as I know).
I'm doing my best to contribute to this site, but when I'm second guessed and asked for proof every time I turn around it gets frustrating and aggravating.
My apologies if I'm coming off harshly, but I am an accomplished breeder and don't feel like I necessarily need to provide references for every comment. If you doubt my abilities feel free to ask other accomplished breeders who are familiar with me (and have been around entirely too long like me :p)
cmpenney
(Chad Penney)
9/27/10 08:35 PM
Yes we are volunteers and spend a great deal of our free ( and often not so free ) time working to make the MBI a success.
It's our job however to do exactly what is frustrating you, question everything. Rich we aren't picking on you or treating your requests any differently than any other request from any other person. We need to insure that we have done our due diligence and new requests fit are placed appropriately in relation to other species already in the system and within the guidelines created for each class. We are just trying to do our jobs to the best of our ability.
You yourself have said that for some of these species there is very little to no information out there on so our only option is to ask you "Why do you think this?". Sometimes we are going to agree, other times we are going to err on the side of caution and classify them higher with other similar species "Just to be safe" we'd rather award earlier successes with extra points and encourage people to share information then rate it low and miss out on that.
Since we have no information any of these species in the MBI we are happy to award extra points to the first person or few people to share their information with the rest of us.
That is why we do what we do. We aren't trying to drive anyone batty or insult anyone. Trust me Rich. There are no egos here! We are just trying to do the right thing best best and sometimes only way we know how 
rsman
(Richard Reynolds)
9/27/10 09:42 PM
THINK about it, there are ZERO breeding reports in the world on these guys, wholesale there under $1each in lots of like 10. its beeing classified as a FOOD item, forget about getting them to your DPS, as its being added as a FOOD item, some got used as plankton some got used to feed harlequin shrimp .... how hard do you want your D, this is IT. in this case I am not trying to convince you to classify it as an A, its CLEARLY NOT!!!
thejrc
(Joe Thompson)
9/27/10 10:03 PM
hrmm okay...
well then... all arguments aside... Rich can you please shoot me some information on this species pelagic stages (correllated by you or otherwise). I for one as the plankton fanatic am excited to see such attempts I just cant approve based on a live aquaria link. If your core frustration is my thought about re-classifying O. Marina you have to realize that my core interest is protists and I have become quite adept at raising such, I do not claim to be the end all be all. In fact I beleive you will find your classification stuck after I viewed the arguments.
I do know for a fact that this species might well be FC3, in fact I am 70% sure, however I must as council make a subjective decision based on the facts that have been provided and live aquaria simply isnt enough. It's not a stab at you, trust me... the other council members ask me all the time for more images or documentation, this is what we do!! We're trying to document the hell out of something for others. And while I am *extremely* anxious to see what you've done with this species I still cannot approve without the proper information.
mpedersen
(Matt Pedersen)
9/28/10 09:41 AM
I want you guys to all stop for a second and think about the species in question. It's a chocolate chip starfish. Who sells chocolate chip starfish as a "food item"? No one. It's an ornamental starfish that can be as big as my hand. As a breeding project, I'd look at this species as an invertebrate breeding project, with the end goal being juveniles, just like Martin Moe's Diadema project.
Now what I'm gathering here is that Rich, you're submitting this as a food culture item solely on the basis of using the gametes or larvae as a food item, similar to people who keep oysters and spawn them to harvest the eggs as a feed? I know similar has also been done with other veligers and offspring from things like Nudbranchs. All of that said ,I don't think the MBI has anything in the food culture system for this TYPE or STYLE of "food culturing". Flat out never came up in the discussion. Rich, if this is what you're talking about and why you submitted it as a "food culture", then I get it, and flat out, I don't think the MBI has a "box" to put that in.
My take on this is simple - if you are culturing a species to spawn it and hatch it and feed it off, that's fine. You can still submit spawn and hatch reports for an ornamental invert. You'll never "complete" the species if all you're planning on doing is feeding off the spawn or babies.
That said, any classification request made is more helpful if you include more info from the get go, especially when it seems (as in this case) that you may feel you know more about what you're submitting for than we do. What it boils down to though is that everything must be documented and backed up, especially when the info/ claims are not part of the "general" "common knowledge" pool. Otherwise the the integrity of the information provided by the MBI (via users) comes into question and the whole point of this project starts to fall apart.
mpedersen
(Matt Pedersen)
9/28/10 09:44 AM
Another way to think about this is something someone else said - you may culture clownfish as a "food item" for "lionfish" broodstock, but you're still cultivating an ornamental fish, not a "food culture" like rotifers, copepods, phytoplankton etc.
rsman
(Richard Reynolds)
9/28/10 01:20 PM
I understand last nights public chat isnt covered here BUT
ok, this is where i have to draw the line, this is species grading, not a breeding journal, not me getting credits for them. YET just asking what the credits would be.
you signed up for the job, do it, when your done let me know.
the reasons i gave it as a food item is
1) I used them as food, both settled(NOT 60days but settled so small harlequin shrimps have food) and larva
2) they wholesale for under a buck each. and there in NO way being harmed by collections .....
cmpenney
(Chad Penney)
10/4/10 08:04 PM
This one has been tough for us. We realize that this was put in as a Food culture. There are many species out there that could be used for food, however our rule of thumb for deciding if a species should be classified as a food item or an ornamental is how it is sold in the hobby.
This species is sold as an ornamental and so we are forced to follow our rules and put this through and classify it as an ornamental. We spent quite a bit of time and research to make sure that we got this one right. This is only the second time we gone to the master himself, Martin Moe, for some advice. He confirmed our thoughts that this species best fits into Class D.