Thread
fishtal
(Tal Sweet)
12/25/10 08:43 PM
Nick, I know we discussed this in chat but, can you elaborate here on your reasoning behind suggesting Class D? Thanks 
mpedersen
(Matt Pedersen)
12/26/10 02:47 PM
+1 - what is your reasoning behind suggestion Class D?
Hellaenergy
(Nicholas Schuetz)
12/26/10 11:40 PM
Tal and Matt,
This suggested rating is partly based on the pure lack of available information on this species. I am unable to find any documented accounts of even one successful hatch in captivity. Having had, what I believe to be, an almost constantly eggbound male, I have yet to facilitate and/or observe a successful hatch firsthand as well. In addition, the feeding requirements of the adults are a challenge due to their size and small mouths. It is my theory that the fry will pose a similar challenge only at a much smaller scale. The fact that they spend most of their time hidden in rock work makes them difficult to observe as well.
To sum it up:
1. Lack of readily available information on the species.
2. Difficult feeding requirements of the adults and fry alike.
3. Their seclusive nature makes their observation difficult.
Not having a well defined set of published requirements as to what constitutes a Class D rating really makes my suggestion more of a guess. If the board has any information and/or advise in regards to this fish and it's classification I welcome that information.
Thank you for your review and consideration,
Nick
mpedersen
(Matt Pedersen)
12/27/10 09:03 AM
I believe several people have hatched Blue Stripes...they tend to breed pretty readily for people who succeed in keeping them alive (and have a male female pair). Not sure how a male could be "eggbound"...pipefish carry their eggs externally unless I'm overlooking something specific to this species.
Here's a link to an earlier breeder's attempts - http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=206&t=4124
This species has shown up on at least one "captive bred" list - http://www.fishchannel.com/media/fish-magazines/marine-and-reef-usa/captive.aspx.pdf
Two related species, Jann's and the Banded Pipefish, are produced commercially in Australia - http://seahorsesanctuary.com.au/seahorse-pictures-gallery/
As far as the Class Requirements, you can see the listings here - http://www.mbisite.org/Points.aspx - Class D is explained as "Typically pelagic spawners and species with prolarvae. Difficult feeding and housing requirements ". The Blue Stripe Pipefish is not a pelagic spawner, and the larvae hatch fully developed, far from a prolarvae. Based on these points alone, it probably means the Blue Stripe will be somewhere in the B or C range. I should add that broodstock difficulties play little in to rankings, i.e. yes, wild caught Seahorses are very difficult to even keep alive, but if you're using captive-bred broodstock, the difficulty is greatly reduced. HOWEVER, the difficulty in rearing offspring from Wild Caught or Captive Bred parents would be the same, and it is that difficulty that largely determines the rankings.
Hellaenergy
(Nicholas Schuetz)
12/27/10 09:47 AM
Thanks for the response. Perhaps the use of the word eggbound is incorrect. I was referring to a male holding eggs. Thanks for the hatching reference. I'm not sure how I missed that. It is my view that the class definitions are still somewhat vague. There is a looseness in their definition that makes them somewhat difficult (imo) for the requester to guess as to what the board will deem as A, B, C or D. Especially with the less documented oddball species. In this case even though the larvae hatch fully developed their feeding requirements are still expected to be difficult. I would think this should count for something in the consideration of their ranking as well. Perhaps since this sp. larvae have never been raised successfully (to my knowledge) that should account for something as well. If/when there is a success with this sp. then their classification will be reevaluated? Is rounding down classes more of a rule than an exception? Is there more of a caution so to speak when giving higher ranking classifications? Are points valuable?
mpedersen
(Matt Pedersen)
12/27/10 10:10 AM
Your welcome Nick. Egg-bound is typically a term used for female animals that are having difficulty passing eggs, hence the confusion. IMO the class definitions are "vague" by design...they're loose because we are trying to fit a continuum of breeding difficulty into 1 of 4 boxes, and these boxes not only need to govern fish, but invertebrates as well. How does one determine that Lystmata amboinensis is a class D animal whereas Oxymonacanthus longirostris is a class C? In the end, by first looking at the simple definitions of the categories, then looking at the species, then looking at similar species, and then looking at the biology and information available as a whole. "rounding" as you say, works both ways, where we might give a "D" ranking to a species that has virtually no documentation and is floating at the C or D level - we might round up to encourage further research into the unknown. Of course, conversely, we might reevaluate a species from a higher rank to a lower one if breeding information proves it to be so (i.e. it is quite possible that before my work with O. longirostris, it might have been considered a D species, but in fact, the group collectively looked at my work and determined it to be at the very high end of "C"). To the points at hand with the Blue Stripe - while you state this species has never been raised, I already provided a reference suggesting otherwise, as well as showing 2 other species in the genus that are done commercially. It is possible with further research that we could track down more solid proof that this species has been reared. Furthermore, the simple truth is that a Blue Stripe Pipefish larvae starts out at about the development state of a 2-3 week old Harlequin Filefish, to give you a frame of reference. That head-start alone suggests that rearing *should* be easier. Rearing currently may be very difficult largely because the "secrets" have yet to be unlocked, but perhaps once the protocol is discovered, these could be "very easy" species to rear (and thus, get downgraded from wherever they end up  ) In other words, we have to balance the knowns and the unknowns when trying to assess the anticipated difficulty level of a species none of us has personally reared. Could we get it wrong? Sure...and that's what the "Challenge" requests are for. I hope that provides some insight.
Hellaenergy
(Nicholas Schuetz)
12/27/10 11:16 AM
Oh eggbound... I remember now. How embarrassing *blush*. I'm sorry and please excuse me but I don't see the reference to the raising of blue stripes. Perhaps I have the word "raising" defined in my head incorrectly. I think of it as raising them to adulthood. I don't think that reference satisfies that milestone:
http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=206&t=4124
Your explanation of how definitions are defined helps me understand this process more. Thank you for that. I do however think that the users of this site could benefit from more explanation/definition in the way of what is asked of them before hand. Tal suggested that the form ask for more information when we spoke via chat. Perhaps that, along with which aspects of the pointing system are up to the judges interpretations and why could be added to the points page? I know your explanation helped me with this process. These of course are only suggestions. Let me know if I'm out of place.
In addition, may I suggest the use of the word "Challenge" for such requests is a bit aggressive. It might come off as intimidating to would be re-submitters. Perhaps it could be worded Re-review? Either way, good job in thinking that portion through.
mpedersen
(Matt Pedersen)
1/3/11 09:03 PM
Nick, just a point of clarification - the reference I'm referring to re: Blue Stripe Pipes being done is the "Captive Bred" list on Fishchannel.com. Tim Hayes compiled that list, so presumably I could ask him for the specific reference which I assume he'd have. By no means are you out of place in anything you've suggested BTW - we thrive on the discourse and while the council are the "referees" of the "game", we're certainly not infallible and we're always open to information and opinions. Indeed, I should probably compose some "FAQ's" on the classifications and the request process...I could probably glean a lot of what I posted in comments here For your insight, none of the "points" are subjective...if someone provides the requisite proof that they've accomplished something, the points are awarded. All achievements are objectively qualified with the exception of the MBI X-Prize. In the reporting process, we do require full and complete reports, and if there are errors or omissions we'll catch them and ask for more, but otherwise, if the proof is there, the points are yours. We do maintain a high bar, but everyone is held to that same bar. And a last "BTW", I hear congratulations are in order, so CONGRATS!
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